Portland is getting F-15EXes!

"Tristan" (casselts) 08/28/2020 at 22:05 • Filed to: None

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Portland is set to become the first operational EX squadron come 2023, replacing the geriatric F-15Cs. 2023 seems overly-optimistic to me, though...

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Chariotoflove > Tristan 08/28/2020 at 22:18

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I love how we bought the F-22 to replace the F-15 for air superiority, and then decided, “well, I guess we don’t need to be that superior for the price.” Turns out the old design had a lot more use left in it for modern air power  than they thought.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Tristan 08/28/2020 at 22:25

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Given how much is carried, should be easier to integrate than a f35 .

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Chariotoflove 08/28/2020 at 22:28

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still life, but not as much in contested airspace with air defence. F 22, and f35 would still have an advantage.

wafflesnfalafel > Tristan 08/28/2020 at 22:33

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I will not forget the time that a pair hot shoed it up here to intercept the dumba$$ in the float plane when Airforce One was in Seattle a decade ago. Ok, boys, how fast can you get from Portland to Seattle in an F15 - lets find out.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/08/oregon_air_guard_f-15s_go_supe.html

Tristan > wafflesnfalafel 08/28/2020 at 22:45

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When  the RST jacked the Alaska Q400 up at Sea Tac, it was a matter of a few minutes. I heard the horn, they got in the air, turned North and stayed in burner until they were out of sight. Sonic booms were heard near Battle Ground.

LastFirstMI is my name > Tristan 08/28/2020 at 23:12

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I guess rubber bullets and tear gas aren’t cutting it anymore?

wafflesnfalafel > Tristan 08/28/2020 at 23:21

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that’s right - I forgot they scrambled for that too.  Honestly, I’ll bet they were hotter coming up for that situation even than the goof with the float plane...

facw > Chariotoflove 08/28/2020 at 23:21

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I’m nowhere near as optimistic on this. Basically they made a big mistake shutting down F-22 production too soon. Now they are scrambling to fill that gap.

Note that at the end of its production run the too-expensive F-22 flyaway cost was $196M while the first F-15EX order is for $225M per plane (that surely includes some set up, but this is quite similar to what Boeing has been building for export).

While it might be useful as a missile carrier, the F-15EX is going to be expensive to build, expensive to fly, and significantly more vulnerable than 5th-gen fighters. For what they envision it doing, they probably should have just bought more F-16s.

I also can’t help but note that Boeing’s St. Louis factory was running short on both F-15 and Super Hornet  orders, and I can’t help but wonder how much of this is just a political effort to save some of those jobs. 

facw > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/28/2020 at 23:29

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Huh? Why would that make it easier to integrate?

Chariotoflove > facw 08/28/2020 at 23:31

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I’m not really that gung-ho on the idea. I was being tongue in cheek with my comment. I think they stopped F-22 production too soon, leaving us with too few planes for the job if we ever really need to use them. We shouldn’t have cheaped  out once we came that far.

I suppose the F-35 can close a lot of the capability gap? But I don’t think it’s meant to serve the same role.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > facw 08/28/2020 at 23:34

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From units already having f15c’s Same engines pwf100-220 so training logistics should be somewhat more well known. 

facw > Chariotoflove 08/28/2020 at 23:44

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The claim at the time was that the F-35 could cover for the gaps created by cancelling F-22 production. It sort of can, in that it’s stealthy, can carry the same missiles, and has a very impressive set of sensors and avionics. But it’s also slower and less maneuverable, and is of course itself over-budget and behind schedule. Perhaps if more F-35s were being built we could use them to replace the F-15s b e ing retired, but at present we are only at around 10% of the desired F-35 fleet, and at current production rates it would take around two decades to get us the rest of the way there (though they are trying to speed that up).

Of course it still seems silly to respond to that gap by buying expensive aircraft based on a half-century old design that the Air Force estimates will not be able to enter contested airspace within the next decade.

It seems to me that if they really do need to backfill, they should do it as cheaply as possible (which would probably mean the F-16, which has the same obsolesce nce issues as the F-15EX, but is at least cheaper to buy and fly ). And then you have to decide if you are going to try to increase  F-35 production, restart F-22 production, speed up the 6th-gen timeline, or just live with the fact might be unable to operate over enemy territory in a war with a near peer (at least early in the conflict).

facw > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/28/2020 at 23:52

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It’s not the same engines as the F-15C. The Air Force is currently buying GE engines used by more modern F-15 export variants (also some F-16C/Ds I think). They do want to try the P&W-229 used in the most modern F-15E’s, but that’s not used in the F-15Cs. In any event, there are going to be so many F-35s around that I don’t think logistics and training are going to be any concern for its engines.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/28/2020 at 23:55

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This interview dates back to 2014, when it was understood that both the A-10 and U-2 were going to be canned. That hasn’t happened. Still, the first paragraph seems to support your argument. This was at a time when the F-35 was way under water. Unfortunately, the entire interview is no longer available from Air Force Times.

Dealing with the Joint Strike Fighter, [ Chief of U.S. Air Force Air Combat Command Gen. Michael] Hostage says he is “going to fight to the death to protect the F-35” since the only way to keep up with the adversaries, which “are building fleets that will overmatch our legacy fleet”, is by employing a sufficient fleet of 1,763 (“not one less”) F-35s. You can update and upgrade the F-15 and F-16 fleets, but they would still become obsolete in the next decade.

But, the F-22 Raptor will have to support the F-35. And here comes another problem. When the Raptor was produced it was flying “with computers that were already so out of date you would not find them in a kid’s game console in somebody’s home gaming system.” Still, the U.S. Air Force was forced to use the stealth fighter plane as it was, because that was the way the spec was written. But now, the F-22 must be upgraded through a costly service life extension plan and modernisation program because, “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.

Chariotoflove > facw 08/29/2020 at 00:05

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Agree with all of this. The F-35 doesn’t have supercruise or the maneuverability of the F-22. It’s more of a technology platform. I suppose if the concept of air superiority has evolved to largely BVR status, then maybe it’s a replacement? But I’m not even a Tyler, much less a military aviation or Pentagon insider.

I agree the F-16 seems a better choice if you need more budget multi-role fighters. I love the F-15. I think it’s one of the sexiest planes ever made. My inner 12-year old will pick that over others every time. But, I have a hard time seeing the value of building new versions.

I know the F-22 was too damn expensive. All of these planes are. But in an age where no one on either side of the aisle seems to give a shit about adding another trillion to the deficit, I don’t understand the odd parsimony that overcame the Pentagon in this instance, when we would at least get something valuable for our dollar.

facw > ttyymmnn 08/29/2020 at 00:09

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This Air Force Magazine article (I wish it has a source for this statement) says:

USAF has said that 2028 is probably the latest the jet could conceivably operate close to contested enemy airspace. However, CAPE and Air Force officials see viable continuing missions for the F-15EX in homeland and airbase defense, in maintaining no-fly zones where air defenses are limited or nonexistent, and in delivering standoff munitions. 

I think that’s pretty damning. I mean they could probably use T-38s for those non-contested things if they wanted to. Or slap a radar and some hardpoints on an affordable business jet.

Still I don’t think we need an all-5th-gen force at this point (or at any point in the near future), but I think that if you are going to be buying new “old” aircraft, there’s no need for premium performance because these aircraft won’t be able to operate where it would be required. Focus on avionics capabilities that would allow contributions from a distance rather than aircraft performance.

facw > Chariotoflove 08/29/2020 at 00:23

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We may well be living in a BVR world. People like to bring up that we thought that going into Vietnam too, and it put us at a disadvantage, but missile tech is clearly better half a century later . I looked into this one time and unless something has happened in Syria or somewhere that I’ve missed the last time there was an air-to-air gun kill was in the first Gulf War when an A-10(!) shot down an Iraqi helicopter. Ignoring helicopters, you had to go back to Falklands when a Harrier damaged an Argentine jet enough that the pilot ejected after returning to base when his landing gear wouldn’t deploy. I think that counts, but it’s not a sign that close in dog- fighting is an especially useful skill.

Of course that might change as 5th-gen fighter proliferate among other nations. At some point you might actually have to get in close if you can’t get a radar lock on your opponent. But if you are fighting a J-20 you’d probably still rather be in an F-35 than an F-15EX, because that J-20 can probably put a missile in you well before your F-15 can get a lock.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/29/2020 at 00:35

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They should be spending the money on restarting the F-22 and upgrading it. 

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/29/2020 at 01:01

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This, in a nutshell.

Tristan > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/30/2020 at 03:29

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Currently, Portland’s got PW F 100-220s, the EX is slated to get the GE F110. No idea what that means for the propulsion flight.

Tristan > facw 08/30/2020 at 03:35

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Interesting... I mean, it actually makes some sense when you consider Portland’s mission is homeland/airbase defense as NORAD alert with a rotating  periodic  commitment to provide theater security.